Pagan Philosophy, Pagan Literature & Virtue, Epistemology & Natural Law - Jay Dyer / Fr Dcn Ananias
In this extensive discussion, Jay Dyer and Father Deacon Ananias engage with the interplay between pagan philosophy and Christian theology, exploring topics such as epistemology, authority, and the moral implications of natural law. Dyer critiques the reliance on historical figures like Aristotle and Aquinas for justification, advocating for a deeper understanding of authority that contrasts divine self-reference with human figures. They also address the nature of virtues from pagan sources, asserting that they can lead to Christian truths and should not be dismissed outright. Through their exploration, they emphasize the significance of a nuanced approach to issues of morality, free will, and the application of church teachings, arguing for a balance that respects both tradition and individual experience. Ultimately, their conversation seeks to articulate a comprehensive view of how ancient philosophies can coexist within an Orthodox framework, enriching the understanding of Christian thought.
Chain 6 steps
- Fr Dcn Ananias: Arguments about natural law derive from papal authority can be seen as arbitrary.“if they can be arbitrary about what constitutes proper basicality, so can we”
- Jay Dyer: Evil is not located in external systems but within one's will.“evil is not located primarily in some metaphysical thing... it's my will being directed away from the good”
via Maximus the Confessor- Jay Dyer: There is a distinction between truths in pagan religions and church grace.“if there's truth, and there are, there's truths in pagan religions, there's truths in cultures outside of Scripture.”
- Jay Dyer: Saints and theologians show that there was diversity among church fathers, contradicting rigid orthodoxy.“the saints and the theologians of the church don't even live up to these ridiculous standards”
- Jay Dyer: Virtue is integral to both pagan and Christian thought, according to the Cappadocians.“Cappadocians would employ… whatever is good is from God.”
- Fr Dcn Ananias: Coherentism can be used as a tool without adopting it as a worldview.“you could use what the coherentist epistemologist says about that that's true to then critique...”
Subjects
38Jay refers to St. Augustine's struggles with the goodness of marriage in the context of his view that the ideal is the celibate state, highlighting that Augustine wrestled with this issue in his writings.
Jay discusses the authority and training of clergy in the Orthodox Church, emphasizing how this training equips them to apply laws wisely and compassionately.
Jay sees more commonality between later Augustine and Maximus than with Aquinas, especially regarding natural law and divine illumination.
The discussion touches on natural law as it relates to virtue and sin in philosophy, highlighting the need for a framework from orthodoxy to assess these concepts.
Jay examines the nature of authority and its role in epistemology, critiquing the fallacies related to authority.
Jay critiques the foundationalist approach to epistemology by arguing against circular justification.
Jay discusses the nature of evil, differentiating between privation and moral evil, asserting that they refer to different contexts and implications.
Jay critiques the concept of the papacy as a foundational authority for justification in claims about natural law.
Jay critiques Thomas Aquinas’ views on natural law and argues about the implications of his theories regarding morality and societal structures.
Jay critiques the Roman Catholic position as established in Casti Canubii, suggesting it lacks grounding in the patristic period.
Jay references Cicero as a source to illustrate contradictions in pagan literature regarding the nature of the gods.
Jay highlights the issue of circularity in arguments that rely on foundationalist principles.