Oriental "Orthodoxy" Refuted Pt 5 with David Erhan & Orthodox Shahada
In this piece from Jay Dyer on Oriental Orthodoxy, he collaborates with Kai and David Erhan to explore significant theological and metaphysical distinctions between Orthodox Christianity and Oriental Orthodoxy. They engage in discussions about the essence and energies distinction, particularly as it pertains to Christology, critiquing Oriental views and defending Orthodox perspectives as coherent and vital for understanding Christ's dual natures. The conversation also addresses the implications of partaking in the Eucharist, the intricacies of hypostasis, and the historical context of Christological debates, including the roles of various ecumenical councils. Ultimately, they highlight the necessity of maintaining a unified understanding of Christ's nature and operations to uphold the integrity of salvation.
Chain 6 steps
- David Erhan: The arguments against Oriental Orthodoxy are complex and reflect their metaphysical inconsistencies.“there is an incoherency in their paradigm”
via David Erhan- Jay Dyer: The Eucharist is the deified flesh of Christ, relating to Christ's two natures.“we're partaking of the deified flesh of Christ, which St. Cyril says is a reality post-resurrection and ascension.”
via Maximus the Confessor- Jay Dyer: Apollinarianism is not fundamentally about the human will, but about rationality in Christ.“Apollinaris argued that Christ cannot have a rational mind because the rational mind for him was what is essentially personhood.”
via Nestorius- David Erhan: Monophysites use the argument that the fifth council needed to clarify the fourth council, implying the latter was insufficient.“this argument when applied consistently cannot really be in good faith used against the Orthodox on this point”
via Cyril of Alexandria- David Erhan: Dividing Christ's nature leads to a reduction of His role in salvation.“Christ is reduced to just a role model meant to be emulated”
- Jay Dyer: Theological departure affects aesthetics and sacramentology in Orthodox iconography.“I would say yeah when you depart theologically it's your life your aesthetics your sacramentology”
Subjects
26Jay explains Saint Cyril's anathemas, particularly the third and fourth, to highlight their implications regarding the union of Christ's natures and the misuse of his terminology by Nestorian interpretations.
Jay cites the theology of St. Gregory Palamas, noting that uncreated light cannot be experienced through mere natural means but requires the Holy Spirit for transformation.
Jay Dyer refers to Maximus against Pyrus in relation to the discussions on gnomic will.
Jay refers to David Erhan as a participant in the discussion and a person who has been busy due to personal commitments.
Jay discusses the unity of action among the Cappadocians, explaining that their argument supports the existence of one God through the unified activity of the three hypostases.
Apollinarianism denies the full rational mind in Christ, claiming that the divine mind replaces the human rational mind, thus leading to significant Christological errors.
Jay Dyer argues that the Eucharist involves partaking of the deified flesh of Christ rather than created substances.
Jay outlines Nestorianism's misunderstanding of consubstantiality and their division of Christ's hypostasis, which leads them to two ontological identities in Christ, maintaining the distinctness of divine and human natures.
Jay asserts that Nestorius' acceptance of the Council of Chalcedon was not as straightforward as presented, highlighting the nuances in his agreement and the implications for Oriental theology.
Jay Dyer presents the view that theosis, or deification, cannot involve created grace and emphasizes its connection with uncreated divine energy.
Jay mentions that David wants to challenge Agin to a formal debate on Christ's two natures.
Jay Dyer discusses Apollinaris in relation to his views on Christ's human will, stating that he argued against the existence of a human will in Christ, which led to further theological debates.