The True History of the 19th Cent Vatican: Marx, Lincoln & US Relations - Tim Gordon & Jay Dyer
In a series of discussions, Jay Dyer and Tim Gordon delve into the intricate historical relationships between the Vatican and significant political figures during the 19th century, including Pope Pius IX, Abraham Lincoln, and Karl Marx. They analyze themes of nationalism, localism, and governance, exploring how these connections impacted events like the American Civil War and Italian unification. Dyer argues that Marxism functioned as a mechanism for economic control rather than genuine liberation, while also critiquing post-Vatican II changes that have affected traditional Catholic teachings. The discussions further address modern implications of 19th-century principles, touching on topics such as subsidiarity, education, and religious tolerance, as well as examining contemporary issues within the Church, including Pope Francis' initiatives. Throughout, they emphasize the connections between politics, theology, and law, highlighting how historical developments continue to shape today's political landscape.
Chain 6 steps
- Tim Gordon: Pius IX's relationship with Jefferson Davis was significant and based on shared opposition to liberal nationalization.“the only world leader who did it.”
via Popes- Tim Gordon: The Hampton Roads Peace Conference disproves the common myths surrounding Lincoln's motivations during the Civil War.“this is the proof text for... why it's not just like lost causers who say this thing about the American South.”
- Jay Dyer: The evolution of Vatican positions after WWII deviated from traditional teachings.“Do you see Pacham and Terrace as a natural outworking of the principles of Rerum Novarum”
- Tim Gordon: The spirit of Vatican II misapplies principles like those in Rerum Novarum.“the ideas of political economy at the second Vatican council were bad.”
- Tim Gordon: Lincoln represents a critical shift towards centralized governance in America.“Lincoln then that is the pivotal shift to this new kind of thinking in terms of the history of America.”
- Jay Dyer: Importance of tradition and education outside of the traditional canon.“the Book of Enoch... is not strictly speaking canonical”
Subjects
24Jay Dyer presents Lincoln as a figure who subverted local governance, aligning with Northern industrialists' interests during the Civil War.
Jay Dyer argues that Marxism is more about control than liberation, seeing it as a tool used by capitalists to achieve economic goals.
Jay critically examines Pope Francis's initiatives, particularly regarding his multi-faith house, arguing it leans towards syncretism and supports a geopolitical agenda for a one-world religion.
Jay argues that subsidiarity is a principle of natural law that supports limited local governance, contrasting it with the post-Vatican II emphasis on solidarity that he sees as detrimental.
Jay Dyer notes that Leo XIII recognized property rights as natural rights, aligning them with life and liberty, and impacted the understanding of these rights through his encyclicals.
Jay suggests that Marxism and international capital represent competing internationalisms against Christian institutions.
Jay describes Operation Gladio as Cold War-era CIA trained cells meant to counteract any potential Stalinist invasion in Europe, framing it within discussions of the Vatican's intelligence connections.
Jay discusses the relationship Pius IX had with historical figures during his papacy, particularly his recognition of Jefferson Davis during the American Civil War.
Jay discusses the principles of Rerum Novarum and questions how they relate to modern economic and political frameworks.
Jay and Tim discuss the Civil War's underlying motivations, arguing it was more about state rights and economic factors.
Jay argues that the 14th Amendment, a product of Lincoln's governance, has been used to facilitate a form of nationalism that contradicts the principles of subsidiarity.
Jay Dyer identifies critiques from Leo XIII regarding Americanism as troubling aspects of American governance and its separation of church and state.